TAMPA, Fla. — The murder trial for Nicole Nachtman continued Wednesday morning with discussion over the defense's claims of insanity and self-defense.
This following discrepancies over what would be considered "insanity" and "self-defense" with the experts brought forward before the jury.
Nachtman faces two first-degree, premeditated murder charges after being accused of shooting and killing her mother and stepfather, Myriam and Robert Dienes. Law enforcement said they were both found dead from gunshot wounds in their Carrollwood home on Aug. 20, 2015.
Nachtman, who was 21 at the time, originally claimed she was at Florida State University in Tallahassee when the murders happened. The school told detectives her FSU ID had not been used in the previous seven days.
RELATED: 3 witnesses cleared to testify after speculation of possible mistrial in Nachtman murder case
TUESDAY'S COVERAGE: 'I'm going to miss you, Joey': Nachtman's brother testifies she admitted to the shootings
Nachtman's brother, Joseph Carey, came forward Tuesday morning to deliver powerful testimony, which included him testifying Nachtman had admitted to the shootings to him over the phone.
Tabled conversations between the defense and prosecution were brought forward without the jury Wednesday morning. During the discussion, Eric Lehr was questioned again about Myriam's alleged abuse of Carey.
The defense claims Myriam and Carey's biological father were both abusive, but the prosecution claims it was only the father who was abusive.
Nachtman's uncle continues to testify
The jury was brought out at a little before 10 a.m. and Lehr was brought back out for cross-examination. The state asked about the apartment Nachtman lived at when she was 17 and still at Sickles High School and the relationship Lehr had with his sister, Myriam. Lehr said he did not agree with some of Myriam's parenting decisions, which caused the two to be estranged from time to time.
The prosecution asked about Nachtman's grades and Lehr testified she had been an honor student before she went to the air academy. He also testified he went to Nachtman's apartment in Tampa and saw only a mattress and no other furniture. He also said he expressed concerns about Nachtman but said Myriam did not listen or react to them.
Video of Nachtman's interview by detectives
The defense played a video clip of Nachtman being interviewed by a state doctor. Nachtman is heard mumbling and talking about a story she wrote about "Elsa the Snow Queen."
She's heard asking for an attorney after the doctor asks if he could record their conversation. She is heard going back to discussing her story soon after.
Mental health professional testifies
Dr. Kathleen Heide, a criminology professor at USF and mental health professional, testifies she evaluated Nachtman eight days after the shootings in 2015 and said she's seen her 13 times in total.
She said she also met with both Joseph Carey, Nachtman's brother, and Nachtman's father, Ronald, in September of 2015.
Heide testifies Nachtman was acting very "bizarre," saying she was going from being very somber to being very animated, telling jokes and acting childish when she was asked about the murders.
She said Nachtman was always "pleasant" and cooperative and would go into "excessive detail," ramblings at times when asked questions. She testified it appeared Nachtman's long-term memory was very poor and did not remember having another brother outside of Joseph. Kevin, her other brother, had died in a car accident in 2003.
She says she saw Nachtman give a riddle to a police officer and excitedly told both of them about the anime she liked. When the officer left, Heide testified Nachtman seemed to become anxious and started pacing the room, wrapping her sweater around herself even tighter.
At one point, Heide testified Nachtman laid on the ground after she became tired, resting her head under the table and picking at her skin. She said it became apparent Nachtman was delusional and said she killed her mom because she was afraid her mom was going to kill her.
She testified Nachtman told her about the auditory hallucinations and her hearing the screaming in her head when she shot her stepfather and mother.
Nachtman told her the shooting of the stepfather was covered up by thunder, Heide said, which Nachtman thought "was a sign from God" and that "God was protecting her."
Heide said Nachtman talked about the rain which was there when her mother was present and the rain stopping when she wasn't around. She said Nachtmant told her the sky opened after she shot her mom.
Heide also testified Nachtman used signs on her way to school as motivation that what she did was right, such as seeing a sign that said, "You're one step closer to your dreams."
She also said Nachtman told her she thought God was protecting her when she was never stopped by police responding to her parent's home on the night of the murders.
Heide testified that while Nachtman's disordered thoughts have come and gone with medication, Nachtman has continued to hold to her delusion that what she did was right and that she was in "fear of her life."
She also said Nachtman was likely experiencing a psychotic break at the time she shot and killed them.
Following a short break, Heide testified when she asked Nachtman about the shooting, Nachtman told her, "It just happened."
She also said Nachtman appeared to be "impaired" in what is expected of a college student and with the basic level of functioning or caring for herself. Heide claims this could be due to significant trauma, which she says is supported by her not being able to stand up to her mother, Myriam.
She testified Nachtman told her she felt she was properly cared for and given what she needed, but said she "didn't feel safe" when her mom was home, and was in fear of her mom's anger and lashing out at her. She said she referred to psychological documents on the family during the custody battle in 1997 when making her expert opinion on Nachtman.
Heide suggests there was "physical neglect" of Nachtman when she was left alone at the apartment in high school around 16 or 17.
She also testifies when Nachtman was in third grade, she was evaluated for emotional, behavioral and cognitive issues, and would come to school hungry and tired, which suggested neglect. Nachtman was also having issues functioning and was disorganized in class when she was around the age of eight and Heide suggests it was due to the tumult of the family.
Heide also testified Myriam was not responsive to Nachtman's mental health issues and did not get her counseling. She said she believed Nachtman felt isolated from other children growing up and was bullied, causing issues with Nachtman's ability to make friends.
Myriam was described as not being "warm" or receptive, which Heide testified may have caused further emotional neglect for Nachtman.
Heide testified that when Nachtman told previous doctors about Myriam's supposed abuse, Nachtman would start to cry and rock herself as if experiencing the trauma once again. Heide said the supposed abuse told to other doctors included Myriam pulling Nachtman's hair and slamming her head on the table.
Heide testified it appeared Nachtman was also psychologically abused by Myriam. She said Nachtman told her Myriam would say mean things to her, curse at her, and belittle her.
Heide specifically mentioned Nachtman talking about her graduation from high school when Myriam allegedly called her "an overweight s****."
Lunch break
Following lunch, the mental health expert took the stand once again to continue her testimony. Heide testifies Nachtman said she felt "forced" by her mom to get Lasik eye surgery on Aug. 17, 2015, just days before the shootings. She also said Nachtmant told her she felt "trapped" and "immobilized" at home and perceiving she's failure to her mother.
Heide said Nachtman told her she originally planned to kill herself, but after hearing a conversation, she panicked and killed her stepfather. She said she told her she was "in fear" of her mom, because she said Myriam made indications she would get Robert, so she felt she indeed did "have it in her to kill."
She added Nachtman experienced post-traumatic stress symptoms, high anxiety, and said it was her opinion Nachtman experienced "battered child syndrome."
"I would classify her as a battered child, because there was extreme psychological abuse," Heide said. "She was terrified of her mom - because of the stuff that was currently going on, she thought she was going to lash out at her in anger."
She said Nachtman perceived her mom was going to kill her if she found out about her late residency and everything else she was failing to do. Her clinical evaluation with the evidence presented was that Nachtman "fits schizophrenia."
Heide said the "signs from God" along with Nachtman's ongoing disorganized speech and possible genetic connections helped her make the diagnosis. While not formally diagnosed, Heide says Nachtman's father, Ronald, demonstrated signs of schizophrenia.
Cross-examination of the mental health expert
Following a brief break, the prosecution came forward to cross-examine Heide. She was questioned whether it appeared if Nachtman had rational lines of thought when she decided to kill her mother instead of herself, and she testified it did.
The state also questioned the level of physical abuse, which Heide testified may not have risen to the level of "battered children's syndrome." The state also asked her if all of the records of Nachtman's abuse was based on Nachtman's testimony and there were no hospital reports, police reports, or other witnesses of the abuse. Heide said that was correct.
The prosection also asked Heide has at least average or if not above average intelligence to get into FSU, and she said yes. She was also asked if she was taking any medications for any of her symptoms of psychosis and said no.
The state also questioned Nachtman's ability to live on her own for a semester abroad in London, which Heide said she was able to get by while she was there, but there is a possibility she had assistance from others.
The prosecution also claimed Heide has changed her view on what is considered legally "insane," and Heide said she is now debating if Nachtman knew the consequences of her actions. During her deposition, she claimed Nachtman was not considered insane because Nachtman knew what she was doing was wrong.
During the redirect, Heide testified she never thought Nachtman knew the consequences of her actions, which the prosecution argued they were never able to explore in the last trial because insanity was not of question.
Forensic psychologist testifies
The defense called Dr. Charles Patrick Ewing forward to testify as a forensic psychologist. He said he was given Nachtman's jail and family records from the Department of Children and Families to review before his testimony.
He said he evaluated Nachtman in April and said he questioned her at length about what led to the homicides of Robert and Myriam.
"She was off to a rocky start," Ewing said, in reference to the custody battle between Nachtman's parents. He adds the custodial battle caused biological and social problems, which he says was compounded by a "lifetime of abuse." He said her abusive, dysfunctional family eventually caused her psychological breakdown.
He said the movement of her family and Nachtman attending multiple schools likely did not help her mental issues. He also testified about the psychological abuse of Nachtman based on the medical records of the liposuction and her family member's testimony.
The defense will continue its case with further testimony with the forensic psychologist at 9 a.m. Thursday.
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