TAMPA, Fla. — The jury was brought forward Thursday morning following arguments over case law and legal concerns of evidence which may have been taken unconstitutionally.
Nicole Nachtman faces two first-degree, premeditated murder charges after being accused of shooting and killing her mother and stepfather, Myriam and Robert Dienes. Law enforcement said they were both found dead from gunshot wounds in their Carrollwood home on Aug. 20, 2015.
Nachtman, who was 21 at the time, originally claimed she was at Florida State University in Tallahassee when the murders happened. The school told detectives her FSU ID had not been used in the previous seven days.
WEDNESDAY'S COVERAGE: 'She thought God was protecting her': Mental health expert says Nachtman is 'delusional'
The jury viewed a video of Nicole Nachtman being interviewed by a state doctor which showed her requesting an attorney before being recorded. While Judge Sabella said he did not agree with it, he decided not to suppress the evidence.
Forensic psychologist continues to testify
After the jury was brought out, Dr. Charles Patrick Ewing was brought forward to finish his testimony.
"The trauma was great, the trauma was severe," Ewing said in reference to Nachtman's childhood and background.
He testified Nachtman remains mentally ill and her mental illness has deteriorated over the years as a result of her stunted personality and the abuse he claims she suffered at the hands of her mother, Myriam.
He testified he agreed with Dr. Kathleen Hiede's testimony that Nachtman suffers from battered child syndrome.
After reading over documents and interviews with Nachtman, he said she was "convinced" Robert had killed their family dog at one point and put dog feces in her room so he could blame it on her.
"She thought everyone was out to get her," Ewing said.
Ewing said she was heard saying, "I don't think I really live on the outside - It's like being buried alive, but I'm already dead."
He also agreed with Heide's testimony that Nachtman suffered from severe schizophrenia, saying she would go on tangents, start rambling and was thinking disorderly.
He testified about her inappropriate behavior when she was being interviewed by law enforcement about the murders, including her talking about "Frozen" and laughing and "having a good ol' time."
He also testified about her negative symptoms of schizophrenia, including saying, "If life becomes more meaningless and demeaning, I'll just go back to my fantasy world."
"Nicole Nachtman sees the world not in black and white, but in black - she sees everything negatively," Ewing said.
He said Nachtman doesn't "understand" she's mentally ill, which he says is evidenced by her not wanting to be treated for being schizophrenic in jail. He said she sees being mentally ill as a "stigma."
When the defense asked about the murders, Ewing said, "It’s obvious to me she was dealing with a severe mental illness at the time, she was dealing with schizophrenia. It’s clear to me, she was delusional, she believed her mother would kill her when she revealed all these lies, half-truths.”
Ewing testified Nachtman knew killing her parents was legally wrong but did not know what she was doing and didn't know the consequences.
He added Nachtman was suicidal but wasn't able to do it. He said during her interview Nachtman said she was afraid her parents would kill her because of the financial problems they were discussing over the phone, so she panicked and killed Robert.
"Nachtman said killing [Robert] would guarantee her mother trying to kill her," he said.
He added it was part of her delusional thinking and another sign of her schizophrenia.
The state cross-examines the forensic psychologist
After a short break, Ewing was cross-examined by the prosecution. The state questioned Ewing's diagnosis of schizophrenia and the defense's claim of insanity.
Ewing continued to testify Nachtman was in a "psychotic state" when she killed both Robert and Myriam. He added she was "suicidal" and "didn't know what she was doing."
Ewing agreed with the prosecution Nachtman was fearful of the police being called after she shot Robert and she made attempts to clean up and move the body. He testified he wasn't aware Nachtman's car had been moved 1.7 miles away from the home before the murder of Myriam.
The prosecution also questioned her ability to get her housing information together along with collecting money for the housing from a family member following Robert's murder. Nachtman's ability to use a gun and knowing what would happen when she pulled the trigger was also questioned, which Ewing also chalked up to her being in a psychotic state.
The jury was allowed a break and Judge Sabella asked Nachtman if she wished to testify in her own trial. After a few questions, she declined and the defense rested its case.
The prosecution brought forward David Lehr, Nachtman's cousin, once again in its rebuttal case against the defense.
Lehr testified to some of the family photos, including photos of the family going to a horror convention together at the age of 18.
The jurors were dismissed and Ronald Nachtman, Nachtman's biological father, was brought forward for questioning about alleged abuse of Myriam.
He said Myriam choked him while she was pregnant and punched and shoved him while he was holding Nicole "several times." He even claimed she fractured his skull at one point because he said she hit him so hard.
Ronald was dismissed as a witness and the trial was paused for lunch.
The state psychologist and psychiatrist testifies
The trial resumed around 1 p.m. as the prosecution brought Dr. Emily Lazarou forward as a rebuttal witness. Lazarou is a state psychologist, psychiatrist, and forensic psychologist and was the first doctor to evaluate Nachtman following the murders.
In the jail records, Nachtman was not diagnosed with a mental illness and is not taking medications for a mental illness, Lazarou testified. She said she believes she spent around 14 hours with Nachtman.
She testified she does not believe Nachtman fits the diagnosis of 'battered child syndrome' she said due to the "limited scope" of the reported physical abuse. She also said she is not aware of the personality scales used by Dr. Heide to diagnose Nachtman.
Lazarou testified Myriam was a "strict" parent who "wanted the best" for Nachtman. She said after speaking to Joseph, Nachtman's brother, she said she gathered Myriam had a "crude" style of speaking with her cursing, but said that was due to her being raised in a household with all boys and being in the military.
She said Myriam appeared to pick at Nachtman's flaws to make her "better." She said while that works for certain personality types like Joseph, it did not work in the case of a "meek" personality type like Nachtman's.
She added just because Myriam wasn't lovey-dovey, that it doesn't mean she was abusive.
She said it's typical for people's personality to change as they reach their teenage years and said she studied the records from the time Nachtman was in the naval academy. She said while she seemed to "act out" and tried to get people to react in shock to her, Lazarou said it was not out of the norm for a child.
Lazarou testified it was common for college students to not keep their room clean and not shower as often based on Nachtman's personality type.
"They don't really care enough about others enough to do it - not something they would do on their own," Lazarou said. "There's evidence she could do these things on her own."
She bought clothes, did her makeup and her hair while she was in London, but chose not to when she was on her own and not around her family, she also testified.
Nachtman was externally motivated and no longer felt someone was there motivating her or pushing her to succeed, Lazarou testified. She also said it was not abnormal for adults to be interested in cartoons like 'Elsa' from the movie 'Frozen,' as evidenced by people attending events like 'Comic-Con.'
Lazarou diagnosed Nachtman with 'adjustment disorder with depressed mood,' meaning Nachtman has a hard time adjusting to change in her life. One of the depressive issues she testified was Nachtman not succeeding in college and college not being "what she expected" since she had a 3.8 GPA in high school.
She also testified she has diagnosed Nachtman with 'borderline personality disorder' and says she fits six of the criteria for the disorder. She said Nachtman has an unstable personality with limited interpersonal relationships, has no sense of "self," a chronic feeling of emptiness due to the lack of sense of self, and was overly paranoid about her mom finding out about things, causing severe dissociative symptoms.
Lazarou said Nachtman does not fit the criteria of schizophrenia. She said Nachtman never reported psychotic symptoms to her, including auditory and visual hallucinations. She adds Nachtman was not insane at the time of the crime.
She said it was strange that someone who could not clean themselves could clean an entire murder scene. She also testified it was strange it was reported Nachtman could not do her laundry, but that she could wash the clothes at the murder scene.
Nachtman was acting with "executive functioning," Lazarou testified, which she said was evidenced by her filling out housing paperwork and communicating with family members in between the shootings of Robert and Myriam.
Nachtman knew the murders were wrong, Lazarou argued, because she admitted she knew the police were coming for her and tried to cover up the murders. Lazarou argued Nachtman knew what would happen if she pulled the trigger on the gun because she had talked about killing herself with the gun.
The defense cross-examines the state psychologist
Following a short break, the defense tried to discredit Lazarou and her testimony and analyses of Nachtman during cross-examination.
During the cross-examination, Lazarou testified she asked Nachtman if she had been hearing voices or seeing things others could not see, and she said Nachtman had said no, she hadn't. She also testified she disagreed with the definition of insanity that Ewing had presented in terms of experiencing hallucinations.
After another quick break, the defense questioned Lazarou's testimony of Myriam's parenting styles and the alleged abuse. Lazarou said she would have provided counseling to the parents if she had heard about the reported head slamming and kicking Myriam was accused of inflicting on Nachtman.
She again testified there was no documentation of physical abuse outside of Nachtman's reporting of the abuse.
Video interview between Nachtman and Lazarou
The defense showed part of a 22-minute-long video of the interview between Lazarou and Nachtman.
The defense questioned Lazarou about Nachtman's response to her asking about her being reportedly abused by her mom, where Nachtman is heard saying, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry."
While the defense claimed it was a sign of her "reliving" the alleged trauma, Lazarou said it was Nachtman's response to being sorry for getting the answer wrong on her assignment multiple times.
The defense asked Lazarou if it's necessary for a military nurse to be compassionate, and Lazarou said not necessarily. Lazarou claimed Myriam was just trying to correct issues Nachtman had and was "controlling" in the sense she felt it was necessary.
She admitted Nachtman did tell her she was feeling suicidal. Lazarou testified, however, it was due to Nachtman's borderline personality disorder, not her having schizophrenia.
Lazarou admitted Joseph had told police that Nachtman was "terribly afraid" of her mother, Myriam.
The defense asked Lazarou about Myriam's relationship with both Nicole and Joseph.
During a redirect, the prosecution asked if Nachtman was "forced" to get liposuction and Lazarou said there was no indication she was based off the depositions she read. She said, instead, one of the friends had testified she "felt lighter" and "could actually eat" after the liposuction surgeries. She was also questioned about the Lasik eye surgery, which she testified Nachtman said she preferred so she could "exercise more freely" without glasses.
Lazarou was excused and the judge asked one juror to stay behind due to a time commitment on Friday. The judge decided an alternate juror will be put in the juror's place.
The defense and prosecution went over further case law over what would be allowed in closing statements.
The trial is expected to resume at 9 a.m. Friday with closing statements on both sides.
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